POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

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jgreenberg01
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POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 08 Jul 2010, 08:52

I wasn’t quite sure where to put this because I used factory & EA ammo for this test, so I’ll compromise and put it in the FsN handgun forum.

I keep my FsN sighted in for 7 yards using ProtecTOR rounds – I figure that is probably the farthest distance one would realistically use a weapon in a SD situation. I typically practice far more with SS197 though because of the cost factor, although I always put some ProtecTORs through her every time I shoot as well. I rarely shoot paper because I prefer steel plates and the instant feedback you get at each hit.

I finally realized that I didn’t really know the difference in POA/POI for the different rounds because I shoot plates all the time and figured that this is probably good information to know.

So I went to the range with some paper and I shot 3 rounds each of ProtecTOR, S5 and SS197 at seven yards while standing. Point of aim was 1/2” above the black dot (because there is no way to distinguish the holes if I hit the shoot-n-see dot). Here was the result:

Image

Then I tried it again at 15 yards leaving the sights set for 7 yards, this time on a bench & using a sandbag. Same POA (1/2” above the dot). I did have one flier due to an ugly wasp-like insect landing on me as I was squeezing the trigger (wasted an S5 round, grrr). Here’s the result:

Image

I repeated the exercise again and got virtually identical results. So it would seem that within 15 yards the difference in POA/POI between ProtecTORs/S5s is negligible and when using SS197 the difference is within reason. If I was going to use SS197s at 15+ yards out, the sights definitely need to be adjusted.

My real take-away from this exercise though, is that I am apparently a real girly-man, and all a bad guy has to do to get the drop on me is… bring along a trained wasp!

I’m just wondering if anyone else has tried this exercise, and if so, were the results similar?
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by murphies_finest » 08 Jul 2010, 10:33

Nice thank you for the pics and the write up.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by Mister Freeze » 08 Jul 2010, 10:55

My FsN is factory sighted for the weak-ass blue-box ss195's. Here are some 25yd targets.

Image

Image

and 100 yds...

Image

Blueorison is doing some POI/POA testing too.

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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by blueorison » 08 Jul 2010, 21:04

PM sent.

Your elevation for the ProtecTORS and the S5 looks about right.

Their velocities are quite similar, but the physics of the round as it passes through your bbl might differ more significantly from each round. My thoughts are that within the 30 ft SD scenario, you should be good to go with either sighted in. The 197 will shoot much lower past 50 feet versus any ammunition, even 195.

Hope that helps.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 26 Jul 2011, 12:29

Time to Zombify this thread.

After the round of testing I just did, I decided that I'm going to carry the S4Ms in my FsN and needed to adjust my sights accordingly. I keep them set for 7 yards because that's the farthest distance you are likely to encounter a BG in a HD situation. I also compared at 15 yards and wow, what a shift in POI!

By the way, I learned that it's hard to aim, even doing benchrest when it's 95 degrees with near 100% humidity and sweat literally dripping into one's eyes :lmao:
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by blueorison » 26 Jul 2011, 15:11

Great test. I have not done the POI/POA for 7 yards.
jgreenberg01 wrote:
By the way, I learned that it's hard to aim, even doing benchrest when it's 95 degrees with near 100% humidity and sweat literally dripping into one's eyes :lmao:
]
Welcome to my world, Greenberg.

106 everyday here, sweat all over, shooting IPSC for 5 hours, then night match the same day. :D

It's great when I meet northerners. It's an edge we have over them; to operate in this weather.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 26 Jul 2011, 16:18

Major props to you Blue. I got used to that playing sports, but shooting is a little different when you're trying to keep the groups tight. It goes beyond the stinging... you have to blink more often and things start to get blurry. Even more blurry than my old eyes are used to.

And you do it on the move - there's gotta be a trick to that.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by Mister Freeze » 26 Jul 2011, 19:42

Oh, puh-leez! Blue, what do you know about humidity?

Back in the day, we ALWAYS went to the (Army) range in the summer: uniform, boots, helmet, etc. Good training, though. Adverse training for SD is where it's at. Consider stinging sweat = to groggy eyes in the middle of the night.

Has any POI vs POA data been collated? Knowing the difference between your zero and other rounds would be useful.

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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by blueorison » 26 Jul 2011, 19:55

What do you mean back in the day. You still wear your fatigues around. :)

I know a few of us did POI/POA. I haven't for the S4M but it will be the same as S4 as it's about ~50 fps faster.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by Rapier1772 » 26 Jul 2011, 22:38

blueorison wrote:It's great when I meet northerners. It's an edge we have over them; to operate in this weather.
Ok, then we should be allowed to reverse the tables on you. Come up & shoot here in the winter. Below 0º not including wind chill :p :laugh:
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 27 Jul 2011, 04:38

Mister Freeze wrote:Has any POI vs POA data been collated? Knowing the difference between your zero and other rounds would be useful.
The zero on my FsN was set for SS197 for that particular picture fi that helps. By the way, it too a LOT of clicks to change the zero to the S4M rounds at 7 yards. I felt like I was dialing in a 1/8 moa scope from 100 yards to 400 yards. Click, click, click, click...
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by blueorison » 27 Jul 2011, 14:12

Rapier1772 wrote:
blueorison wrote:It's great when I meet northerners. It's an edge we have over them; to operate in this weather.
Ok, then we should be allowed to reverse the tables on you. Come up & shoot here in the winter. Below 0º not including wind chill :p :laugh:
Haha.. cold isn't bad at all. Have shot in snow before. Heat kills your brain and you cannot focus at all.

It's good to train in adverse weather. Yes.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by Rapier1772 » 27 Jul 2011, 16:25

When it is calm, the cold itself isn't bad. I have pics where I was out at the range shooting when the ground was covered in snow. The rifle was funny, I'd shoot & snow would fall off the roof. I'd shoot again & more snow would fall. Boom, thump, boom, thump... :lmao: They liked me because I would clear the snow off the roofs over the line :laugh: Also, a buddy of mine was doing advancing drills with my PS90 in about a foot deep snow drifts :laugh: But that smeggin' wind has a pretty sharp bite to it.

That heat is the only reason I am glad I can't go to your shoots - I hate that much heat/humidity :laugh: Not to mention my fat butt trying run around & shoot at the same time - probably very bad :laugh: :facepalm: Would you have paramedics standing by? :laugh:
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by Vortec MAX » 28 Jul 2011, 13:05

Your targets look about right to me. I have found that the faster the ammo, the higher it hits. You will actually run out of elevation adjustment on the hottest ammo if you are trying to match your point of aim to your point of impact. Here is a target I shot with SuperRaptors:



Obviously, the green dot was the point of aim. The point of impact is much higher.

Mike

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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by jgreenberg01 » 28 Jul 2011, 13:10

Vortec MAX wrote:Your targets look about right to me. I have found that the faster the ammo, the higher it hits. You will actually run out of elevation adjustment on the hottest ammo if you are trying to match your point of aim to your point of impact.
Mike
FWIW, I go it dialed in for S4Ms at 7 yards. It took quite a few clicks of the adjustment screw, but it's there.
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Re: POA/POI Adjustments for Different Ammo?

Post by ShockedNKansas » 29 Jul 2011, 11:42

I know this thread isn't specifically about self-defense, but since we are discussing self-defense distances (7 yards), I think it might be appropriate to add that very few people use their sights in a self-defense situation. I think it is good that S4M shoots a bit high because I believe people tend to shoot low during intense periods of what basically amounts to point and shoot.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, I just think that many lurkers on this forum who practice at 7 yards would be best served focusing on finding their "natural point of aim" rather than dialing their guns in from a bench rest (although there is obviously nothing wrong with dialing your sights in). Target practice and self-defense practice are two different things. Correct me if I'm wrong here. :)

Here is a very helpful video to watch for those needing to find their natural point of aim. If you have never done this, you will find that your accuracy will improve tremendously during rapid point and fire drills. Once you find your stance, practice getting into it until it is second nature. This stance is what you will have to instinctively jump into if God forbid you ever find yourself in a really bad situation.






Okay, back to dialing your sights in at close distances! :thumb:

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